Monday, May 27, 2013

Over-all Suit

Over-all Suit

Additional Equipment

Additional Equipment

Additional Non-lethal

Additional Non-lethal

Batarangs

Batarangs

Glider and Jet Pack

Glider and Jet Pack

Grappling Hook

Grappling Hook
A grappling hook, of some kind, is necessary when one wants to climb up the side of the building or obstacle but sees no obvious foothold to do so. An iconic symbol of Batman and other vigilantes, if one wants to scale walls, prevent death when falling or generally climb over obstacles one cannot ordinarily, it can be exceedingly difficult to do so without some kind of obvious climbing harness and a grappling hook. A grappling hook essentially is a line or rope attached to an object that can connect a hook on to whatever it is that is wished to be climbed. Traditionally, this implies multiple hook like devices connected together and propelled with a rope attached to hopefully "hook" on to something with an obtuse enough angle to attach, and then use this to support your weight and climb up. Unfortunately not all obstacles possess oddly-shaped things that jut out at precarious and desirable angles in just the right way to useful for a grappling hook, and landing a perfect hit with a grappling hook is relatively difficult even with a skilled user. The iconic view of a grappling hook wrapping around and tying around itself on an object perfectly at a moment's notice is more or less a work of fiction, which makes it virtually impossible to use in the way it's often presented. This is ignoring the weight issues, of which to propel a heavy hook a considerable distance one would need an extremely powerful propellant, be it gunpowder or an oversized air canister power, that likely would be much larger than what is often portrayed in films and comic books.

Therefore, a more practical device is preferred. Part of Batman or vigilante's appeal is their ability to get around places and move quickly, especially on roof tops, which would present a problem for most people or even police under ordinary circumstances. The ability to get on top of a building and drop down on unsuspecting bad guys, report information to the police or just continue the chase of a criminal is part of the appeal of such a character. The actual design, as a result, will be particularly important, not only to allow for something viable in the role, but also tactically efficient, something that can be deployed quickly, but also without the need for considerable skill to have the hook land in exactly the right spot to catch on to a surface. This would require a quick attaching mechanism, a lightweight launching mechanism that can be handheld, a lightweight rope, and a climbing harness that it can attach to in order to distribute the weight over the user. The idea of attaching a grappling hook to a belt is also a work of fiction, and is more likely to break the person's back and kill them than slow their descent; in fact, it likely would be a more agonizing death to stay stuck on a building stranded for hours with your back broken than it would be just to fall and die instantly.


Hook - Grappling Device
More idealistically, the "hook" would be powered by a small explosive charge of some sort, to embed the "hook" in to an object, so it can be designed to stick on to any surface with force, and then stay embedded within the object to support the weight of the user. A properly designed hook could shoot out and then latch on to the object, and then remained hooked into, and dug into supporting the weight by static friction and not just gravity. This hook could have multiple barbs, such as in a grappling hook, to allow for a broader distribution of the weight and reduce the chance of the hook releasing or breaking from the object it's embedded in, or any variety of things to allow it to stick into the object better. As long the material could support the weight of the user, it could theoretically be used. An advantage of explosive activated device would be that no matter the velocity of the grappling hook, it could still embed itself into the material. By changing around the shape of the device, it would be easier to latch on to whatever it embeds itself into, and be harder to remove. A barbed hook of some kind is therefore the ideal shape for a penetrating device. A similar proof-of-concept design was produced by the Mythbusters, for a familiar grappling hook design, although the design for use by a professional should be more aptly shaped (instead of just using a nail), more easily mass produced, and use a more powerful/optimized explosive. The basic concept of an impact detonated grappling hook is solid, however.

The alternative, or perhaps in combination with this for something more effective and less destructive, would be some kind of "sticky" material that immediately hooks on to any object it attaches to. Some kind of extremely powerful adhesive is an option, but runs the problem of not being powerful enough to adhere a human and their swinging wait to a building or other obstacle, not drying fast enough to latch on in a short amount of time, and also being virtually impossible to remove once it's stuck to the side of a building. Another option would be a material which replicates gecko-hair, or the tiny hairs on a gecko and other creature's feet which allow it to latch on to various surfaces, including glass. One would need approximately 1 square inch per 10 pounds, and while a human is only 200-250 pounds, extra material would be desired to carry multiple people, and resist the extra weight of swinging or movement which could dislodge the device. A sort of net that springs out that has the size of approximately 10 x 10 inches, or 100 square inches, is likely good enough for the job. In combination with or in replacement to the

Launcher - Grenade Launcher
More importantly than this, is determining a way to launch the supposed device and the desired line. The Plumett AL-52 is a compressed air pneumatic grappling hook launcher designed to send a 3mm rope line roughly 100 meters. It is relatively large, heavy, and cumbersome, with many details unknown about it, and being well over 15 pounds for a single use. At it's size, it would be somewhat impractical to carry around with a person everywhere they went, as a back up utility device. Air pressure is, simply, in a reasonably sized container, significantly weaker than gun powder and other potential propellants, reducing it's strength and therefore power significantly. Air pressure is on average 30 times weaker than gunpowder outright.

A somewhat smaller, and more practical design could be based off of a grenade launcher. The M320 for example, despite launching a relatively heavy payload, can be fired like a regular weapon, potentially with one hand, is only about 3.3 pounds. With the high to low pressure system, the weapon can eliminate large recoil that could ordinarily be present from a high momentum device. The plumett AL-52 suggests that it produces roughly 2kj, or 2000 joules of energy with it's launcher, with a range of 100 meters. A grenade launcher uses an, approximately 180 gram round propelled at 76 m/s, that produces roughly 520 joules, with a 150 meter close range and a 400 meter maximum range if angled.

While not the first idea that pops in to the mind of someone wanting to be Batman (due to his aversion to firearms), a 40mm grenade luncher or 37mm flare launcher (a civilian equivalent) is considerably more practical due to it's availability, cheaper price, and higher power. Furthermore the use of specialty rounds, such as flashbangs, tear gas, or pepper spray can be an additional advantage, even if regular high explosive grenades are avoided (particularly for legal issues). The added versatility and power makes the grenade launcher an ideal choice, although the use of a grenade to fire a grappling hook will take some custom work. Notably a small hole will be necessary to feed the string through the grenade launcher itself, allowing it to be connected to the climbing harness at all times. The cable or rope will need to be attached to the suit, rather than the grenade launcher itself, with the grenade luncher and rope a permanent fixture to the suit so it's already connected to the grappling harness (instead of needing to do this in mid-flight or free-fall) and attached in some a way to stop releasing rope after the line has attached itself to an object. Finally, a mechanism to assist in pulling the user up, such as one found in U.S. Ranger's known as the "ascender" or by the mythbusters will allow a mechanism on the back to ascend without having to use their own strength.

It's conceivable that if only a little larger, more powerful, or using lighter weight materials the grenade launcher could provide a much smaller platform to produce the same general results. The primary limitation with the design will be weight, as the projectile, rope, and other materials need to be light weight enough to allow for a long enough distance of travel and for a high enough velocity to actually be able to get out to long ranges quickly.


Grappling line
A 40mm grenade launcher, which is only 3.5 pounds and can usually be used as a stand alone weapon, can propel a 180 gram round at 76 m/s to approximately 400 meters. At quadruple the mass, or 72 grams, the round would have approximately half the range; for E = (Mass)(Velocity)^2, 1040 = (.720)(38)^2, or approximately 38 m/s, which would be approximately half the velocity, or half the range. This means that at only half the range, you could theoretically propel a projectile four times the weight. Since the line's weight would increase as the round was propelled, the line gaining length through the air, the calculation would be different to determine it's exact weight and there would be a somewhat varying velocity in flight (mass essentially being gained in flight). The round would start off substantially faster and slow as the line, or rope, increased in length in flight, which would give it a longer range. For the purposes of these calculations, this will be ignored, but it means that the range of the projectile will be farther than what is actually listed. In addition to this, the weapon would have somewhat increased recoil due the heavier weight of the projectile; despite having the same level of energy, the impulse and momentum would be different due to a change in mass, therefore increasing recoil. In the case of the 9mm parabellum pistol round, when compared to the 5.7mm x 28mm, cartidges with approximately similar energies, the 9mm typically has around 30% more recoil, since the 5.7mm round is 2 grams while the 9mm is 7.5. Similarly, the .357 SIG round has comparable recoil yet a lighter weight round and higher energies than the .40S&W, which it was designed from, producing similar if not roughly the same recoil as it's parent round, the .40 S&W, which is much heavier. Increased mass, even at the same energy levels typically yields a somewhat higher recoil, and therefore the backlash and decreased control of the weapon (or the reverse, decreased mass at higher energy levels has approximately the same). However, due to the line being added in flight ("lengthening" as the projectile moves), and the only mild recoil increase even with a quadrupled mass (approximately 30-40%) this should only be a minor issue. Finally, higher pressure variants can be utilized which would increase the power of each round and thus it's range or the weight of the projectile (but also increase the recoil), but this depends specifically on the load-out and grenade launcher in question to determine if such an option is viable.

720 grams is approximately 1.6 pounds. Some form of device would be required to allow for the line to stick into the target, thus adding to the weight of the launched device. Determining the strength of the cable will be difficult, as the primary limitation is weight. A quarter inch steel cable (6.4mm) is somewhere around .11-.125 pounds per foot, has a safety load of approximately 1100-1300 pounds, and a breaking strength of around 6000 pounds, depending on the variant. While an industry standard, assuming a weight .125 pounds per foot, and 1100 pounds for the safety load, this would allow for only12.8 feet of line, without calculating if the rope has gained mass in mid flight (which would increase the range somewhat). This by itself is rather abysmal, and so such a steel cable would obviously not be viable for use in a grappling. A rope a quarter this size would have a safety load of approximately 275-340 pounds (and about quadruple this for a maximum range), and provide about 50-52 feet of range, or about 17 yards. This is actually fairly generous when climbing a short building is considered, but not capable of building to building-swinging like Batman or Spiderman are often shown to do.

However, some form of ultra-light weight, high strength material could be used instead of steel which would be ideal for the role. Kevlar for instance is approximately 5 times stronger than steel in terms of weight. With a rough estimate, this would a kevlar cable of the same weight have a 250 foot range, or about an 85 yard range, in comparison to the steel, which obviously is considerably farther and much closer to the desired estimate. This is more or less adequate for most realistic applications, although Kevlar has issues with stretching, UV and heat issues, and problems with absorbing quick sudden shocks, making the material wear out quickly, and be worse on a fall. However, the line would probably hold for a few uses. Kevlar makes a great high strength fiber, and generally has a much higher tensile strength than steel, although other properties need to be factored in to have a completely accurate calculation.

M5 fiber on the other hand, offers even more promising mechanical properties. At approximately 10 times the strength of steel, or twice as strong as kevlar, elastic, resistant to water, UV, heat, friction, and possessing many other desirable qualities in a line, M5 fiber could have an approximately 170 yard range. Assuming similar strengths to steel, this would be a 275-340 pound safety range, and significantly higher for it's breaking strength. Elastic, somewhat more resistant to damage than Kevlar, and less prone to damage upon stretching, this material would make a somewhat more ideal line for bearing weight than Kevlar or steel, and yet be significantly stronger. Dyneema is another option, widely used as a fishing cable and 1.6 times stronger than kevlar, being far more common than M5 fiber currently is and also possessing more desirable mechanical properties than Kevlar, although not being as elastic as M5 fiber. Spider silk is another theoretical option, but one that is also not widely available.

Although, the weight of the grappling hook needs to be added. This could vary depending on the design, material construction, strength of the explosive, design of the impact etc., although it stands to reason it wouldn't be much more than a 100 grams. This would put the range of the launcher at around 150 meters, far below it's breaking strength, and at around it's working strength, giving it potential to be even longer (theoretically 5 times longer, if the breaking strength is used, which would be more dangerous).


Other Design specs
In order for the design to be more practical, several considerations need to be taken. How would one propel themselves up the line, how would one make sure the harness doesn't cut too much into them when they fall etc., these things can mostly be alleviated by simple design considerations. The multiple point harness suit should have rubber and other energy absorbing material underneath it, potentially impact gel, as well as soft padding. Ideally it's put on over the body armor, so the body armor can help distribute the force over an even greater area and be softer on the body on a rough fall.

Probably, the best way to store the line, is to have it already attached to your suit, before it is even fired. A multiple point harness suit, which could spread out the load of the rope, over the legs, arms, chest, torso, stomach, and other parts of the body (avoiding places where it could become dangerously, damaging, or painfully tight), rather than putting it all in on area, would make it easier to support the weight compared to just being attached to one place, such as the belt (which could actually kill the user). The tether or rope should then be attached to the suit before hand as well, similarly spread out, to allow the energy to be distributed over the whole body instead of on a specific area. When the 40mm grenade shell is loaded into the grenade launcher, presumably with the grappling hook, the wire should be attached to the suit through a hole in the grenade launcher, already being a permanent fixture to the suit. In this way, you would not shoot out the grappling hook and hope your arms are strong enough to hold on to it with your bare hands and with no safety harness (and possibly pull your shoulder out of your socket when you fall), but already have it attached to the suit and be more readily be absorbed over the body. This same rope would also be connected to an ascension mechanism, to help you climb automatically, rather than being connected to the launcher. This would limit the number of grappling hooks you could have, while simultaneously making it's use much faster and intuitive.

Additional factors to consider are the use of a glider suit to slow the descent of the user, a rubberized connection to the harness to spread out the energy of the fall given that the rope (the Kevlar or M5 fiber) will be more taught and not as springy as a bungee-jumping rope, and thus will more quickly decelerate the user and potentially injure them. Further energy absorbing materials, such as the body armor, helmet and impact gel should be utilized to help prevent the user from A well trained paratrooper can fall approximately 24 feet without injury, and so with proper training and materials an equivalent fall of 50 feet, on top of the rope slowing the user down and the glider suit should allow for falls that might ordinarily injure or kill a normal human. A combination of different factors should dramatically impact the performance of the grappling hook, and be used in conjunction with it. In short, such a device would not be the product of one, lone gun firing a single grappling hook, but rather a system, with the grenade launcher, rope, and ascending device all separate from each other. Some forms of equipment can be used for multiple purposes, such as when falling, or absorbing bullets or punches and kicks like with the body armor, which makes the system somewhat synergistic when all the factors are combined together. Some elements might be ignored all together, such as the ascender, while others are crucial for function (such as the grenade launcher and rope). In the end this is one small piece of equipment to the overall batman suit, but it is nonetheless one that must be planned considerably ahead of time to be practical.








Armor

Armor

Being Batman

Being Batman
While not actually possible to be Batman, as he is a fictional character, the concept of being a vigilante is still ingrained in to the popular mind. While fun to fantasize about, few really consider taking on the mantle of a vigilante, fighting criminals at night and being a normal mild mannered person by day. There are a number of obstacles and


Feasibility and practical considerations
While Batman is particularly wealthy and that immense wealth is helpful to fighting bad guys, one doesn't actually need to be as rich as Batman to achieve their basic objectives of being a vigilante, if they're willing to make a few compromises and take a few liberties. While one would need to be in relatively good physical shape, have decent hand-to-hand combat skills in addition to being a good detective, you wouldn't have to be quite as good as Batman to get along functionally. For starters, becoming a private detective or bounty hunter (or both) could give you legal access to the activities without drawing unwanted scrutiny from the police or law enforcement, and give you money for being successful at what you do. The more bad guys you hunt down and stop, the more you get paid, if you arrange your activities appropriately, and thus money spent on crime-fighting is actually an investment in to your business. While not everything you would do would be on the books or legal, it would give you enough permission to be credibly involved in these activities without drawing undue scrutiny from police (why would an accountant for example be responsible for stopping so many crimes?). It would also give you the ability to hire employees, affording people to do run of the mill work like taking calls, providing medical treatment, and helping you do detective work and track down criminals. It would also give you a logical reason as to why you have the equipment you do, such as so many trackers, listening devices and so on in your possession (making appear like a private detective instead of like some kind of serial stalker to the police).

Secondly, with many employees and other workers, you'd be more likely to be able to take out many bad guys, having a small team of operatives to assist you if you need it (although those that directly support you would need to be in on the vigilante ism). On top of providing abilities like hacking, tracking, data mining and other skillsets that would require you to be a super genius to be able to do all as one person (Batman may be an expert hacker, code cracker, pilot, hand-to-hand combat expert, detective, inventor and every other expert under the sun, but hiring other people eliminates the need to be good at all things), you could also dole out menial jobs (such as tirelessly digging through mountains of paperwork or searching up people's records) to other individuals, saving you precious time that could be spent in the field. It would also give you the ability to collect bounties and wanted criminals and receive payouts for it, such as individuals on the FBI's most wanted list who's pay-outs can be in the millions of dollars. With multiple people, you not only can get more work done and provide new skillsets (even if you are decent in all of the areas yourself), but you also can more realistically take on multiple bad guys. Batman vs. 30 people is certainly an extreme test of skill, but 5 people vs. 30 people makes the odds much easier, and stacks them in your favor. Especially better if you outnumber you targets. This makes winning in battle much easier and more likely to occur. Like Seal Team 6 or police squads, operating in groups gives you a much higher chance of success than as one single individual. Granted you may end up taking certain cases by yourself due to the questionable legal nature of your activities.

As for fighting bad guys outright, this also wouldn't be particularly difficult. While you would need some skill and ability in combat, ambush tactics, such as getting the first attack off on the bad guys, normally should allow you to succeed the majority of the times without much of a fight being necessary. In self defense you normally are in a dynamic situation where the enemy is already prepared to fight you and likely even better prepared, and this makes your job much more challenging, but when you can choose your targets, such as with stealth and ambush tactics, it's much easier to win in a fight. Sucker punching someone, tazing them, or even shooting them at a distance with a sniper rifle (like a sniper), when they aren't even aware of your presence, let alone existence, is fairly easy to do and eliminates any chance for the enemy to fight back. It was Sun Tzu, in the art of war who is often quoted as saying that the best battle is the battle won, not the battle fought; essentially, what this means is that shooting your enemy before they can pick up a gun and shoot back, or sucker punching them as it may be, by sneaking up on them, is a superior way to win a battle than try to get in to a fight with someone and thus give them a chance to fight back. While you can't always rely on "getting the drop" on the bad guys at all times, it would certainly make the job of capturing or beating up criminals much easier when you can get the first punch, or attack off on the bad guys. It's much easier to shoot and kill an unsuspecting target, or incapacitate as the case with Batman is, than it is to attack someone who is in the state of fighting back. Strategies and tactics often times have a bigger determinant on success than raw firepower in many circumstances.

Of course, it's inevitable you will eventually get in to a fight with someone. Maybe the numbers are too large to avoid, the bad guys notice your sneak-attack attempt, you screw up the attack, or the bad guys simply get the drop on you first. In these cases, you will need to know how to fight and defend yourself. Luckily, the vast majority of criminals are not particularly well prepared for fighting. For some quick statistics, somewhere between 3-8% of violent criminals use a gun in the commission of their crime, meaning that the vast majority using their bare hands or a knife or baseball bat. Of those that use guns, between 70-95% use handguns, which is particularly true with gang violence. The second most commonly used gun is a shotgun. The benefit of this is that relatively basic body armor, such as kevlar, which police wear, is capable of stopping these weapons fairly effectively. While not all bullets and weapons are stopped by police or military grade body armor, notably rifle rounds, well over 99% of weapons used by criminals are. The vast majority of the time, the criminal likely won't even have a gun, and when they do it will be a gun that is easily stopped by cheap, commonly available body armor (ranging in the few hundred dollar range). This is rather convenient, as, if you were to armor your body from head to toe (like Batman does), you'd be virtually invincible to common threats. Rifle rounds, or particularly sharp knives and edged weapons, such as a crossbow, bow and arrow and swords would be able to pierce your armor, but as these weapons are not particularly commonly used. Crossbows and smaller, higher velocity bullets, with hardened steel tips, are actually more likely to penetrate kevlar than regular bullets, as kevlar is strong but soft, capable of absorbing lots of energy (such as from a baseball bat) but poor at absorbing cutting or stabbing attacks (such as with a knife). Where as Kevlar will stop your average pocket knife, something much larger and sharper, like a samurai knife, will get through more easily.

Luckily, armor that can stops blades, bows and arrows and other such weapons has been around for a long time, in the form of samurai or knight armor, chainmail, and other medieval armor like this. Steel plates, or even hardened plastic, like found in riot gear, is far better at stopping sharp instruments or blades, like knives and swords, and dissipating (although not absorbing) energy. The concept of the "Dark Knight" may be appropriate in these circumstances, as it could be beneficial to wear armor that it is similar to a medieval Knight or Samurai. Nonetheless, this armor should more or less be sufficient against most bladed weapons, blunt instruments, fists, and the majority of firearms used by criminals. The ability to take on multiple opponents will be enhanced by wearing body armor, as the damage you receive in return, even from gunshots, would be rather minimal. Other considerations would be to carry tazer guns and or tazer-knuckles, brass knuckles or sap gloves to enhance your punching power, pepper spray and tear gas, pepper spray and tear gas grenades, and other such weapons. A back-up gun, in case things get out of hand, is also a viable option if you're willing to kill some of the times (which as a private investigator or police officer, you would). Another question in it's own right, you'd have to ask the delicate question; to kill, or not to kill.


To kill or not to kill; that is the question
I believe it was Shakespeare that first aid "To Kill, or not to Kill, that, is the question." Well actually it was "To be or not to be", but the same concept applies. The greatest question and moral dilemma is, if you are willing to kill or not. While many would say that it's explicitly against Batman's ethos to kill and that he would never kill a criminal, this has not always been the case. Many iterations of Batman have him killing people, even if only rarely or when it's absolutely necessary. The original version of Batman in the 1930's certainly had him killing many people, but soon this was stopped because it became too easy to trace the evidence to him and he realized he was needlessly killing criminals for petty crimes (and also parents found the violence gratuitous and distasteful). The story his parents dying was effectively made to make him against the use of guns, but even so iterations show him shooting people with machine guns on an airplane, fighting against super powered aliens (whom he has to kill), and even in wars that invariably would have demanded he killed people. While it could be said that Batman has an aversion to killing and avoids it and only kills when absolutely necessary, some iterations take this more seriously than others. It could also be said that batman doesn't want to kill, but will when he has too.

Some versions of Batman have him never killing, while others have him almost killing people, and others have him "letting them die" instead of explicitly killing them. However, some still, such as in the newer versions, show a darker grittier version where he even flat out uses guns. While it varies considerably, it's not completely against the rules for Batman to kill, but normally he does not kill petty criminals, as the punishment would not fit the crime. Killing someone for shoplifting or jaywalking wouldn't necessarily seem moral, and thus killing is best left to situations where it's absolutely needed. Even if Batman didn't intend to kill anyone, after fighting thousands of criminals eventually some of them would die. Either by accidentally fall off of something, Batman hitting them too hard and them having some rare disease (like asthma or a heart condition), them dying of a heart attack, injuring themselves when trying to escape (I.E. like jumping off of a roof top), or even committing suicide to avoid his capture. Invariably, realistically, Batman will kill over time by his natural exposure to thousands of criminals, and his violent tactics. There are a percentage of people who die in football, boxing, and even basketball from injuries each year, so it's understandable that someone punching people hard enough to knock them unconscious would carry the risk of permanent brain damage or even death. All you need to look at is old boxers with head injuries to know the risk of repeatedly punching people in the head. Batman may not intend to kill, but inevitabley it's likely going to happen, whether out of sheer heat of the moment (drawing a gun in self defense if he sees no other way), or completely by accident when a person with a weak skull or bad heart or asthma gets punched instead. That's ignoring the potential complications from enhanced gloves, like with brass knuckles.

For realistic purposes, sometimes killing is the most practical option to go. It allows certain levels of training to carry over (such as those with guns or in the military) and gives the tactical flexibility needed to occasionally kill people when needed. It reminds criminals that you might kill them, enhancing the fear, and gives you the ability to take our certain criminals that the justice system might fail on, either be inadequacy or technicality. Certain mob bosses or leaders, mass murderers and the like could all be targets when they fight back and killing them becomes the only option necessary. Sometimes sniping someone from a distance or using a car bomb is the only realistic way to save lives, as if a cartel leader is allowed to fight back many innocent people could die. The opportunities may be scarce and, sometimes the most practical thing to do is kill people. For the average battle, it's not recommended for moral and practical reasons, as not all criminals deserve to die, and killing that many people is bound to leave behind evidence and attract the attention of law enforcement. Criminals might not report getting beaten up, but dead bodies leave behind evidence police have to investigate. You would want to avoid killing as often as possible to avoid the moral issues and becoming the enemy of the police, but simultaneously never killing can be just as bad. If you never kill people, than you may end up with situations like with the joker or other insane criminals who've killed hundreds of people continuing their actions. Sometimes, the more moral thing to do, is to kill, as you could save dozens of lives. While certainly not a fun topic to discuss, it is one that needs to be discussed at length to be considered.